Text for Clarence Miller’s final version
IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS OF ALLEGHENY COUNTY, PENNSYLVANIA
CHARLES J. GOLDBLUM, ) CIVIL DIVISION
Plaintiff, ) No. GD 98-6096
DEPOSITION BY RICHARD GIGLIOTTI OF CLARENCE MILLER, ) (edited)
RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness herein, called by the Plaintiff, for examination, taken pursuant to the Pennsylvania Rules of Civil Procedure, by and before Cheryl B. Morris, a Court Reporter and a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, at the Butler County Prison, 121 Vogeley Way, Butler, Pa., on Monday, June 7, 1999, at 1:04 p.m.
COUNSEL PRESENT:
For the Plaintiff: Law Office of Lee Markovitz
by Lee Markovitz, Esq.
For the Commonwealth: Governor’s Office of General Counsel
By Syndi L. Guido, Esq.
By Mr. Markovitz
P R O C E E D I N G S:
RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXAMINATION BY MR. MARKOVITZ:
Q. Would you state your name please?
A. Richard Gigliotti, G-i-g-l-i-o-t-t-i.
Q. And you are the warden of the Butler County Jail?
A. Correct.
Q. How long have you been the warden of the Butler County Jail?
A. Since September of 1988.
Q. And in addition to that, you also serve as a member of the Pennsylvania Board of Pardons; is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And how long have you served on that board?
A. December 1995.
Q. And you recently handled the case of the application of Charles J. Goldblum, a life prisoner, who had applied for commutation; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. And in the course of that case, I understand you had occasion to meet another individual who was involved in that case by the name of Clarence Miller; is that correct?
A. That’s correct.
Q. And Clarence Miller is housed at the State Correctional Institution in Pittsburgh; is that right?
A. Correct.
Q. And how was it that you came to meet Clarence Miller?
A. It was approximately five days to a week before the Pardons Board hearing that we were going to have with the applicant, Mr. Goldblum, and I wanted to get current information or statements from Miller on his take as co-Defendant of this case involving Goldblum with the murder that occurred some 20 years prior to that.
Q. So this meeting would have taken place right around May the 1st, give or take a day or two?
A. My conversation with Mr. Miller happened on Thursday, April 29, 1999.
Q. Okay. Who was present in the room with you and Mr. Miller?
A. Obviously Mr. Miller and Attorney General Mike Fisher.
Q. Okay. So just the three of you?
A. Right.
Q. And there was no court reporter?
A. No.
Q. As we have here today?
A. No.
Q. And the meeting wasn’t tape recorded at all?
A. No.
Q. Did either you or the Attorney General take notes?
A. I did not take any notes. I do not recall seeing the Attorney General taking any notes.
Q. Okay. And how long if you can estimate was the actual meeting with Mr. Miller?
A. We first came in and exchanged pleasantries. I’m estimating 40 minutes approximately.
Q. Did Mr. Miller voluntarily agree to speak with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ask for any consideration in return that you know of for speaking with you?
A. No.
Q. And now prior to the meeting, of course, you had been provided with fairly substantial materials relating to the application of Charles Goldblum; is that correct?
A. Correct.
Q. Had you had an opportunity to review those materials prior to meeting with Mr. Miller?
A. Yes.
Q. So by the time you met with Mr. Miller, you had a certain understanding of the case?
A. Correct.
Q. And when you met with Mr. Miller, did both you and the Attorney General ask him questions?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. Then finally, you at some point began to ask Mr. Miller about the murder of George Wilhelm I assume?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you ask him?
A. The one thing that I can recall asking him is that for many of the years that he has been incarcerated, I believe he’s been in jail now for approximately 22 years, for much of that time, he has denied direct involvement in the actual stabbing of the victim. I asked him if that was still his statement and he said no. He said that he now openly admits his involvement along with Goldblum’s involvement in the stabbing and murdering of the victim.
Q. Okay. And specifically, how did he describe Goldblum’s involvement and his own involvement in that stabbing?
A. I can recall him saying that Goldblum was sitting in the back seat and inflicted the first wound by coming up over the back seat over the shoulder of Mr. —
Q. Wilhelm.
A. — Wilhelm and stabbing him in, in the lower chest or stomach area. He was describing it as we were sitting in a chair, the hand coming over and inserting a blade into the victim.
Q. And did he go on to describe how Mr. Wilhelm suffered the remaining 23 or 25 stab wounds that he
received?
A. He said that he participated in those along with Goldblum as they were chasing him across the parking lot stabbing him and then eventually throwing him over the top of the parking lot.
Q. Did he say who was wielding the blade in those other stabbings?
A. He told me that Goldblum definitely started the stabbing and then he took the blade from Goldblum or Goldblum handed him the blade and Miller continued the stabbing. How many each of them did, I don’t even think he has a clear recollection.
Q. Did Mr. Miller say anything to you about the purpose of the meeting with Mr. Wilhelm regarding the murder?
A. He told me that he thought he used the words that Goldblum supposedly had used saying that he’s going to get an upcoming or he’s going to get his. Miller claiming that what he thought was that they were going to rough him up. Miller thought that Wilhelm was just going to get roughed up or beat up and he hadn’t realized that it was going to lead to the ultimate killing of Wilhelm.
Q. So Miller said to you that they were planning on assaulting Wilhelm that night?
A. He did not say that they were planning on it. He said that Goldblum indicated that he was going to take care of things and the way Miller described it or indicated to us was that they were going to rough Wilhelm up.
Q. Did you understand when Mr. Miller told you that he inflicted stab wounds on Mr. Wilhelm, did you understand that that was something that was different from anything he had said before or anything that appeared in the record before?
A. Well, I was under the impression that initially, upon first arrest, I was under the impression that a statement was made that both of them were involved in a stabbing which led to the death of Wilhelm and then throughout the defense of the case, that changed to a not guilty and for many of those years and I’m guessing approximately 15 to 18 years maintained, Miller maintained that he did not inflict any stab wounds. Miller explained that this was up until within the last what he called recently the last year or two where since then his health has declined and he’s had a religious conversion — not a religious conversion, where he states that he has made peace with Jesus Christ and that he has no reason to lie because he knows due to his health that he probably will not be alive for very many years.
Q. Was he still incarcerated in the general population there as far as you could tell?
A. I don’t know that. He came back just shortly before us.
Q. Did he appear to be coherent to you when you interviewed him?
A. Yes.
Q. Was he able to understand the questions that you and the Attorney General posed and was able to respond in a rational way to them?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. What did Mr. Miller say about how the murder weapon was transferred from Mr. Goldblum to Mr. Miller?
A. He indicated that after the initial stabbing occurred by Mr. Goldblum that he then handed off the shear which was a broken grass shear to Miller and then Miller began stabbing him.
Q. And was this handing off, was this related in some way to when the victim left the vehicle?
A. I don’t know that. If he said when they handed it off to one another, I cannot recall when that transfer took place.
Q. But Mr. Miller did say that he himself had stabbed Mr. Wilhelm in addition to Mr. Goldblum, that he Miller had stabbed Mr. Wilhelm; is that correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. But he did not say how many times he stabbed him; is that correct?
A. I do not believe he gave us a number as to how many times he stabbed him.
Q. Well, he told you that Mr. Goldblum stabbed Mr. Wilhelm first one time in the car; is that right?
A. He didn’t say one time. He said that he stabbed him first.
Q. First time?
A. Correct.
Q. And did he indicate how many times Mr. Goldblum stabbed Mr. Wilhelm?
A. He didn’t give a number. I got the impression that it was a quick couple times before Mr. Wilhelm was able to get out of the vehicle.
Q. Okay. And again, he did not put the handing off of the blade in any kind of time frame in connection with Mr. Wilhelm getting out of the vehicle?
A. No, he did not.
MR. MARKOVITZ: Okay. I don’t have any other questions. I don’t know if you want to inquire at all.
MS. GUIDO: No.
MR. MARKOVITZ: That concludes the deposition.
COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA SS
COUNTY OF BUTLER )
CERTIFICATE
I, Cheryl B. Morris, a Notary Public in and for the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania do hereby certify that the witness, RICHARD GIGLIOTTI, having been duly sworn to testify to the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth; that the foregoing deposition was taken at the time and place stated herein; and that the said deposition was recorded stenographically by me and reduced to typewriting by computer and constitutes a true record of the testimony given by said witness.
I further certify that the inspection, reading and signing of said deposition was not waived by counsel for the respective parties and by the witness. I further certify that I am not a relative, employee or attorney of any of the parties, or a relative or employee of either counsel, and that I am in no way interested directly or indirectly in this action.
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my seal of office this ________ day of _________________, 1999.